There has been a sentiment going around for a number of years now. I've heard it more times than I can remember. Something to the affect of: Women like jerks. Or the occasionally more extreme: Women like only jerks. Sometimes a guy will say it as a bitter lament about life's unfairness. Another guy might say it with a sly and brutal cynicism, as though justifying himself for being an asshole. Either one will usually wait to bring it up in mixed company, as a confrontational challenge to any women who might be present.
On a certain level, I understand where these guys are coming from. I'd be willing to bet that nearly every man reading this post has known, at some point in his life, at least one guy who was the biggest jerk on the planet and who also had girls lined up left and right. We're talking about a guy who seems like he had special training to be an asshole, like he went to Douche Bag University or something. We watch as this guy acts like a complete pig, and treats women like garbage, and if we're really lucky we get to hear these women go on and on about what a sweet guy he is. After you known a dozen or so guys like this, and you've witnessed this same scenario so many times that your frustrated disgust has faded into a kind of dull nausea, then it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that women are into that sort of thing.
Naturally, when a guy voices this sort of sentiment, the women are usually quick to respond with their objections. Women like "nice" guys, they insist, or at least they insist that they personally like nice guys, regardless of what other women do. But the guy isn't buying it because nearly every guy who says this has also gone through a phase in his dating life where he tried to be the "nice guy", or at least what he conceived of as being a nice guy, which usually involves fawning over the girl like a sycophantic puppy dog. All that ever got him was watching his heart being ground into a fine paste under some callous girl's heel. This is what leads to the bitterness and/or cynicism that prompts the statement in the first place.
The sad fact of the matter is that "nice" has little or nothing to do either way with what people find attractive. Don't get me wrong. We'd all like to be involved with nice people, especially if we're talking about a relationship, and most especially if we're talking about a marriage. I doubt that many people would deliberately set out to get involved with a loathsome piece of human garbage that treats them horribly. However, when it comes to those qualities that really electrify our hormones and get our blood flowing, "nice" is probably way down at the bottom of the list. What's more likely to happen is that we find ourselves attracted to someone, and then we try to convince ourselves after the fact that we're dealing with a nice person.
Consider for the moment, fellas, that women could just as easily make the same statement. They could claim that men like bitches. Certainly we're aware that plenty of "nice" girls get left on the sidelines. Looking at it from the other side, we see that there's a certain truth to the claim, but not quite. We don't like "bitches", but we have been known to overlook the severe warning signs of bitchiness if we find the woman to be extraordinarily attractive. Well, women often do the same thing. We all allow our hormones to impair our judgment. In fact, if I were going to make a generalized statement on the matter, I would say that men are probably more prone to overlook obvious red flags then women, but I'd also think that we're probably prone to be more cynical about it too.
And when you couple all this with that fact that jerks of either sex also tend to be manipulative jerks, then is it really any surprise that we've all fallen victim a time or two? Then we go on hurting each other out of spite because some jerk hurt us. There's a line that I remember from a song that was out years ago called "Torn." It went, "You're a little late. I'm already torn." I don't really know what the song was about, but that line always sounded to me like the girl was throwing it in the guy's face that he hadn't known her before someone else had broken her heart long ago. There's something so sad about that, pain needlessly perpetuated. Life would be easier if niceness were a more attractive quality, if we kept our hearts more open to each other. But those damn jerks ruin it for everybody.
Naturally, when a guy voices this sort of sentiment, the women are usually quick to respond with their objections. Women like "nice" guys, they insist, or at least they insist that they personally like nice guys, regardless of what other women do. But the guy isn't buying it because nearly every guy who says this has also gone through a phase in his dating life where he tried to be the "nice guy", or at least what he conceived of as being a nice guy, which usually involves fawning over the girl like a sycophantic puppy dog. All that ever got him was watching his heart being ground into a fine paste under some callous girl's heel. This is what leads to the bitterness and/or cynicism that prompts the statement in the first place.
The sad fact of the matter is that "nice" has little or nothing to do either way with what people find attractive. Don't get me wrong. We'd all like to be involved with nice people, especially if we're talking about a relationship, and most especially if we're talking about a marriage. I doubt that many people would deliberately set out to get involved with a loathsome piece of human garbage that treats them horribly. However, when it comes to those qualities that really electrify our hormones and get our blood flowing, "nice" is probably way down at the bottom of the list. What's more likely to happen is that we find ourselves attracted to someone, and then we try to convince ourselves after the fact that we're dealing with a nice person.
Consider for the moment, fellas, that women could just as easily make the same statement. They could claim that men like bitches. Certainly we're aware that plenty of "nice" girls get left on the sidelines. Looking at it from the other side, we see that there's a certain truth to the claim, but not quite. We don't like "bitches", but we have been known to overlook the severe warning signs of bitchiness if we find the woman to be extraordinarily attractive. Well, women often do the same thing. We all allow our hormones to impair our judgment. In fact, if I were going to make a generalized statement on the matter, I would say that men are probably more prone to overlook obvious red flags then women, but I'd also think that we're probably prone to be more cynical about it too.
And when you couple all this with that fact that jerks of either sex also tend to be manipulative jerks, then is it really any surprise that we've all fallen victim a time or two? Then we go on hurting each other out of spite because some jerk hurt us. There's a line that I remember from a song that was out years ago called "Torn." It went, "You're a little late. I'm already torn." I don't really know what the song was about, but that line always sounded to me like the girl was throwing it in the guy's face that he hadn't known her before someone else had broken her heart long ago. There's something so sad about that, pain needlessly perpetuated. Life would be easier if niceness were a more attractive quality, if we kept our hearts more open to each other. But those damn jerks ruin it for everybody.
I remember that song it was by Natalie Imbruglia. She also compared the previous guy to Jesus.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it is so much that girls like "jerks", at least not me. I like the "bad boy", the "rule breaker", the "mysterious one", and the "deep" guy all rolled into one. Does that equal jerk? Unfortunately in my experience, those qualities usually come with a large dose of sarcasm which is one quality I find myself both loving and hating about my husband.
I've heard good things about DBU.
ReplyDelete@Asha: Yes, that was the song. I never paid much attention to the rest of the lyrics. Jesus, huh? That's weird.
ReplyDelete@Charlie: They have an excellent graduate program in jackassery.
In school I went through stages. One year a model student- quiet, studious, nice, and polite. The next I may have been on an anti-authoritarian streak, questioning rules, skipping class, standing on my soap box and spouting nonsense. For a bit I was the deep poet guy, and I also went through a class clown stage, and one where I picked fights.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that I got the most attention from girls when I was breaking the rules, losing my temper, and being a general jackass. Maybe that is the human equivalent of peacock feathers- it is what gets the females to notice us. No one sees the quiet guy reading a book.
Perhaps it's the assertiveness, the self-assurance behind such behavior, that they find attractive. In a general sense, I think women are attracted to a man that knows what he's doing. Some things, sometimes, create a false impression of that.
ReplyDeleteThere's also the problem that a large portion of "Nice Guys" are being nice just to get into a girl's pants. It's manipulative and it's fake and it reeks of desperation.
ReplyDeleteGuys who are TRYING to be bad boys have the same problem.
Speaking in a very general sense, most genuine bad boys and bitches are being who they really are and refusing to compromise their identity. That confidence and self-assurance is attractive, at least in the short term.
True, but on the other hand, sometimes the guys who are being nice to "get into a girl's pants" are precisely the same kind of jerks we're talking about. There's a fine line between being nice in a smooth and charming way, and being nice in a desperate, fawning sort of way. The former tends to be more effective, even though the latter tends to be more sincere (though not always, I admit. Sometimes it's a ruse too, albeit an incredibly inept one.)
ReplyDeletethe question is about honesty really. The quiet guy reading the book may well be a nice guy but why is he reading a book in social environment?...issues obviously...probably insecure, covering up by being indifferent which transposes to other facets of life. The loud jerk as you describe is at least paying attention and wants to engage
ReplyDeleteThose seem like somewhat dubious assumptions. I wouldn't necessarily say that someone reading a book in a social environment had "obvious issues", especially without knowing what we mean by "social environment." Are we talking about someone reading War & Peace in the middle of a party, or a guy reading on a bench at the park? I'm also not sure how "probable insecurity" translates inevitably to dishonesty.
ReplyDeleteI think some of it, especially in the younger formative years, boils down to the survival traits that are still hard wired into our brains. The loud flashy aggressive smack talking guys get identified as the alpha males which makes them physically attractive in the women's eyes even if they are psychologically repugnant. Fortunately as we mature most of us grow out of these traits on both sides. But some, alas, do not. Some guys will be snapholes all of their lives and there will always be women around who are attracted to that.
ReplyDelete"Snapholes" not to be confused with Snapples the refreshing drinks.
ReplyDeleteUm, I can't help but notice the giant ad for "Russian Love Match" over to the left while I read this. Google certainly knows its audience when posting ads, don't they?
ReplyDeleteClearly they use a complex algorithm to customize the results ;)
ReplyDeletePersonally, I never went for the jerks but I also can't stand guys who are mealy mouthed, submissive, unsure of themselves, or put me on a pedestal (really). I liked to have to work a bit myself and have some cat and mouse (of course!) games.
ReplyDeleteYes, there has to be a certain balance for a relationship to work. If one puts the other on a pedestal (in the sense you mean), that never seems to work.
ReplyDeletePlus, it helps if they know all the good spots to find cheese, right?
Bukowski did an interesting story on this subject in which he concluded that women like liars and "horrible shits" because they are the best equipped to survive in society. It's in Notes of a Dirty Old Man if you're interested.
ReplyDeleteHe may been on to something. That kind of reinforces what I said to Doug above about women liking a man who knows what he's doing.
ReplyDeleteI read once in Playboy that assertive and confident (which can across as assholian) have larger penises than less confident men. The question Playboy posed was whether the large penises themselves imposed a sense of confidence, or whether the two traits were linked genetically.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if women somehow know about these research, and maybe THAT is why they like jerks.
"Assholian"?
ReplyDeleteI'd be careful not to conflate confidence with being a jerk (although some jerks can be quite confident, and as you point out, some confident people can come off as jerks. However, sometimes the little dogs have the loudest barks. And when I say "little dogs", I'm talking of course about little wiener dogs, and when I say "little wiener dogs"...yeah, you get the idea.)
I think we all should do in depth opinions on each other to find out what the next guy or gal really thinks, without repercussion of knowing the truth. I still think women lean on the "tough guy" because society in general imply survival is at its best with these types of personalities.
ReplyDeleteAlso, that guy reading a book might very well be nose-deep in "The Art of War" and I'd rather be on his good side than the captain of the football team when the shit hits the fan.
So you're saying that if I'm a jerk, my stuff will get bigger?
ReplyDeleteSweet....
Wait a second! I've always been a jerk. It should be about nine feet long by now...
I've been robbed!
@Scott..no, Scoot. No, Scrotum!: Are you saying we should profile each other somehow?
ReplyDelete@Rev: Yeah, it's like when Pinocchio tells a lie...but he's being an asshole about it.
We should do one of those late night infomercials, and get the word out there! We could have a guy knocking milkshakes out of people's hands and drop kicking puppies, and then he gives the camera a thumbs up and says, "Thanks Jerk-X-Pander!"
I think this is a two fold psychological phenomenon. Women, and all people in general, are attracted to self-assured confidence. Additionally, many people are very attracted to the unknown with a hint of danger: for example: the amazing race. Fear Factor. Anything where someone else is providing an uncertain adventure. It is human nature. "Bad boys" provide both of these. "Nice guys" often provide the opposite.
ReplyDeleteThe known, the stable, the lack of a hint of dangerous adventure, combined with diffidence is boring.
Sure. Why not? I am sure it will cut someone too deep and next thing you know Doug might kill someone or have...their...baby...
ReplyDeleteActually, I've always been kind of a nice guy. Not the fawning putting them on a pedestal type. More like the helping out in the kitchen now and then and remembering to buy her favorite candy bar when I go to the store type. Ah, well. Been here too long to go shopping for another woman anyway.
ReplyDelete@John: I figured this topic would stimulate some debate. I still maintain that nice has little to do with attraction one way or the other, but you guys have made me consider that jerks may have a bit of an edge...perhaps even a Darwinian edge.
ReplyDelete@Scott: How would we go about something like that? On the FARNC? I wouldn't hardly know where to begin psychoanalyzing you guys, and I doubt any of you would like the results. But hey, get the ball rolling if you like, and we'll see if we're all still on speaking terms after that ;)
@Rev: Ah, the little things.
OK, normally I don't care for images in posts. They are a distraction, but in this case, that was pretty good. Would have been even better if you had not labeled it. More subtle.
ReplyDeleteI figured this topic would stimulate some debate. I still maintain that nice has little to do with attraction one way or the other
Overruled.
You know, I debated whether to add that caption or not. I wasn't sure if anyone would catch the relevance. Somewhat uncharacteristic of me. Usually I'll throw in a joke like that and figure people will either catch it or not. For some reason, I 2nd guessed that this time and added the caption. Lesson learned.
ReplyDeleteBryan,
ReplyDeleteI don't use pictures, but I sprinkle, thoughts, phrases, etc. that are very subtle, even obscure, throughout my writings, with the general assumption that only 1% of the people are likely to get it.
The good news is, when I go back later and see it, I am thoroughly surprised and amused. 1% complete!
You're right. Better to take that chance than to "dumb things down" Better to have faith in your readers' wit and intelligence. I completely agree.
ReplyDeleteWhat a straw man thing to say. I made no such assertion. I have no faith in anyone's wit or intelligence. However, I still like the subtlety of a good literary device that is invisible to everyone who reads the article.
ReplyDeleteIf just one person discovers one of them, it makes it all worth while.
Perhaps I put that the wrong way. I just meant the idea of putting something out there and figuring people will either get it or they won't, rather than condescending to people by "bringing it down to their level." The "faith" is not across the board, applied to everyone, but rather in the idea that someone will get it, that 1%. I'm not sure I see the "straw man" in that, unless you're referring to the hypothetical reader of wit and intelligence.
ReplyDeleteOh, you said "You're right" and then said "Better to have faith in your readers' wit and intelligence." I cannot have faith in them. I just can't. Conservatives read my blog. No offense to conservatives, some, like Vincent, are very intelligent, despite their political disabilities.
ReplyDeleteVincent is a conservative? I honestly hadn't noticed. Seems they raise a different breed of them over in England.
ReplyDeleteAs I said a while back, I tend towards the liberal side, but I have some problems with the liberals as well.
Vincent is an intelligent conservative. Americans probably could not identify a Mammoth if they ran into one, either. No offense to conservatives.
ReplyDeleteWell, in my defense, I haven't ever discussed politics much with Vincent.
ReplyDeleteSo far as I know, nobody has. He calls himself a conservative and he made statements about gay marriage once that convinced me he speaks the truth.
ReplyDelete"Americans probably could not identify a Mammoth..."
ReplyDeleteBig hairy elephant. Ha.
Bryan, I'm not sure the psychoanalyzing is a good idea. Unless it is completely humorous in intent, and even then I'm not sure. Every time Scott makes a Michael Anthony Hall joke I die a little inside.
@Doug: fun fact: Mr. Myste is an American himself, but he's one of the special ones above the rest of us in the unwashed massive. I only hope he has the patience to put up with the rest us us. :)
ReplyDeleteI don't think any of us women set out looking for the jerks but unfortunately there are so many out there these days it is slim pickings for the nice guys! I am with Ashley on this one although I would like to add that a good dancer is high up on my list because as we all know, if they can dance well they are "Good in bed" :)
ReplyDeleteOh, I agree. I don't think anyone deliberately looks for jerks. You hear guys make this complaint a lot, and there's a lot of bitterness behind it. But, as a guy, turning the situation around, you see how silly that claim is. No guy deliberately seeks out "bitchy" women, but you come to realize that how little kindness and niceness have to do with finding someone physically attractive. Unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteAlso...I don't dance very good. Sorry ;)
I think there is something fundamentally different in my genetic structure. I like nerds. Shy, quiet, smart guys who think a wild night is buying a six pack and drinking it in a park while making references to obscure video games with bad translations.
ReplyDeleteI think the stock might be rising on that type.
ReplyDelete