Thursday, November 17, 2011

The World (Reposted)

I originally wrote this piece for a project which Vincent and I were working on during this past summer.  I'm not sure how much sense it will make when taken out of the context of that project and all the strange metaphysical disputes Vincent and I were having, but I figured it might serve as something appropriate for Rachel Hoyt's latest sociology study which is on the theme of "doors & windows."  Anyway, it is what it is.  It's about the World.  I'm not sure how else to put it, so I'll just let it speak for itself.

It's Early Morning.  The light is just beginning to show in the sky outside my window.  A bird perched somewhere in the tree below greets the day with its delicate call.  Man has several names for this bird and this tree in various languages, and science has names for them in Latin which identify their genus and species.  I don't know these names, but then neither do the bird or the tree.  These names were not affixed to them by nature, but rather by man.  However, these names do identify genuine natural realities about them.  The words "bird" and "tree" signify them as something distinct from one another, and their particular names signify their distinctions from others of their type.  If it is a sparrow in the tree, we call it so in English because it possesses those attributes in common with birds of the type "sparrow", and in contrast to the attributes of another bird which we would call a "blue jay."  It has possessed these defining attributes for millennia before mankind affixed these attributes with the name "sparrow", for millennia before there even was such a thing as man, and it was certainly long, long before man began to be confused by himself and to doubt himself and to doubt the world and to ask, "Where is this 'sparrowness'?  Is it real?  Is it in the bird somewhere?  Could I find it if I cut the bird open?"  But the sparrow has gone on, simply being what it is, contently singing its unique song sung only by sparrows, oblivious to the sweet, simple, and breathtakingly obvious answer its providing to our question.

At this hour there is very little traffic passing by on the road below.  The road and the vehicles that travel on it are creations of man.  They were ideas conceived in the mind of man, and turned into physical realities by shaping and manipulating matter, giving it the form and function designed by the human mind.  These things stand as a testimony, as evidence of the co-operation between reality and the mind.  The matter involved behaves according to physical laws, and the people who designed these things were able to do so because they discovered these laws, they believed these laws, and they shaped the material involved in such a way that they would be able to use these laws to their advantage.  The car travels on the road because of the laws of motion, of thermodynamics, of combustion, and many more besides.  If these laws were simply the invention of man, or if they existed solely as a fantasy in the mind of man, or if they had no relation to physical reality outside the mind of man, then the matter involved in the car and road would behave completely indifferently to these laws.  They would slump like stubborn horses refusing to stir as man struggles at the reins of his desires.  They would sit rotting in a field as useless heaps of junk.  For they themselves are objects which lie outside the mind of man and beyond its direct control.  The fact that the car works stands as proof of the accuracy of man's concepts of these laws.  Like the bird and the tree, man has named these laws, man has studied these laws and formulated theories about them, man has designated them by the general word "laws" because of his confidence in his own ideas about them, but the functions and relationships between physical matter that they designate are genuine realities.  And again like the bird, these functions and relationships existed long before man discovered them, long before man existed.  "Nature", Francis Bacon said, "to be commanded, must be obeyed."  The car drives by as elegant proof of this.

As the car passes, its sound increases in pitch as it approaches me, and then abruptly switches to a low pitch as it goes by and speeds off in the other direction.  This is called "The Doppler Effect", and it is a peculiarity of my perception.  The sound of the vehicle never actually changes, but yet this effect is not entirely an illusion either.  It is a relationship between my ear, the speed of the vehicle relative to me, my position relative to the vehicle, and the compression and decompression of the sound waves as they travel the distance between the car and me.  There are a number of such peculiarities.  These are not delusions or unrealities, but rather consequences of my perspective on the world.  The way the information of the world reaches my senses and my mind is itself part of the world, and it too behaves natural law.  Like the Doppler Effect, these things can be discovered, scrutinized, and studied as part of the reality with which we all have to deal.

Sometimes these peculiarities have led man astray, and such an example is appearing now just over the trees.  In casual speech we still say the sun is rising, but by now it is common knowledge that the Earth is turning to meet the sun.  It is true that I have no first hand verification of this fact, and that I'm forced to take other people's word for it.  It is possible that mankind is in error about this "common knowledge", or that a vast number of people have lied to me about it all my life.  But when I consider the evidence that the human race as a whole claims to possess on the matter, my mind is set at ease on the issue of error.  When I consider the number of people that would have to be involved in a "lie", various world governments, various space programs, phone companies, GPS manufactures, astronomers...well, the list goes on....I'm persuaded to accept this "word" as honest in the face of the alternative.  I'm confronted frequently by such situations, most of them not as clear cut and easy to decide on.  I weigh the available information, consider the agendas of the source, consider its fidelity to other information, and consider how much internal sense it makes unto itself.  It may not be the most solid foundation to decide what one believes in, but given the limits of my own first-hand experience, it's the best that I can do if I hope to learn anything beyond the limits of my own life and the things that I personally witness.  I am not omniscient, nor do I claim to be, nor do I believe anyone else can claim to be.  It is always possible that I am mistaken, or that I have been misled.  But I believe that the truth is constant, irregardless of my wanderings.  I have seen Saturn through the lens of my own telescope, and I have seen that Venus has phases like our moon.  This is valuable corroboration of what I've been told, as well as an awe-inspiring experience.  There's nothing quite like seeing it for yourself.

Although I must occasionally rely on my fellow man for factual information, it is not through man that this information is fact.  Whatever the actual relationship between the sun and Earth, or the actual nature of anything else for that matter, the facts of these things exist without regard to whether they are known or believed by ten or ten million people.  I may rely on my fellow man in my belief that the world is round, but if the world is round, it is not out of respect to the opinions of men.  For thousands of years, man believed that the Earth was flat, and the world stayed round in absolute indifference to that belief.  When Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth by comparing a shadow made by the sun at Alexandria with a shadow made by the sun in Egypt, the truth of the round Earth was waiting there to be discovered, outside of the ignorance of man.  When Copernicus discovered that the Earth went round the sun, the rest of mankind was still in the dark, scratching their heads over retrograde motion.  If facts existed entirely through men, then the entire history of science would just be men making things up and then selling the rest of mankind on the idea in order to make it fact.  It was the evidence presented by Copernicus and Eratosthenes that changed the minds of man, not the minds of man which changed the evidence.  The power of consensus is in its persuasiveness, not in its control over reality.  How can I know this for sure?  Another car drives by, reminding me of the physical laws by which it operates, reminding me of man's cooperation with those laws as facts beyond themselves, reminding that the inventions of man have often worked in defiance of consensus and the general faith of the population.

If I decide to trust in my fellow man, not as the determiners of my reality, but rather as fellow travelers seeking to discover its true objective nature, then I am able to gaze with them beyond our solar system, beyond our galaxy, and out to a distance of 14 billion light years in any direction.  This is not believed to be the limits of our universe, but it is the limit of what we can see.  We believe that this is so, because we believe that the universe came into being 14 billion years ago, and light from anywhere beyond that hasn't had time to reach us.  This last idea is bit controversial back here on Earth, it challenges what many other people believe, and leads to a lot of arguments along the frontiers of what we know, and what we are capable of knowing.  But like my sparrow, the universe goes on, placidly indifferent to the conflicts and confusion of man.  It is what is.  Whole stars are born and die out without man ever setting eyes on them, possibly without anyone ever setting eyes on them.  They burn just fine without the fuel of being seen.

So, this is the world as I find it.  My confidence in it begins with me, with my first-hand experience and with the rational conclusions that I have drawn from that experience.  I extend that confidence to the experiences, the explorations, the discoveries, and the ideas of my fellow man, depending on what degree I'm willing to trust them and how much I concur with their conclusions.  But I believe that the world out there beyond me and the facts of that world exist without regard for my confidence, or my confidence in my fellow man, or their own confidence in what they think they know.  I believe that the world out there is what it is regardless of what I think I know about it, or what anyone else thinks they know about it.  First-hand experience has convinced me of that much at least.  The world has demonstrated its constancy to me time and again.  I go to sleep, and reawaken and the world shows every evidence of having gone on steadily without my knowledge.  The world has cut me and bruised me many times to prove its solid existence.  It has often frustrated my efforts and at other times it has rewarded them in turn to demonstrate its indifference to my whims and wishes, and its obedience to my cooperation with its facts.

My understanding of the world begins here with me, in this room.  I can doubt the things I've been told about it.  I can doubt my own conclusions that I've drawn about it.  But I can not doubt the world itself.  I can not doubt the foundation of it, which begins for me with my immediate experience.  It could be said that I have no grounds for believing in this world, but yet I have no grounds for doubting it either.  The world itself transcends belief and doubt, because the grounds for those things have to be found in the world.

Suppose I do try to doubt the world.  I reject the world wholesale as it begins for me here in this room.  I try to flee from it through a door marked "doubt."  I find that this door opens onto this same room, and it returns me right back to the world, searching for the grounds with which to justify this doubt.  I dismiss this world as a dream, and again I try the door hoping it will return me to waking reality.  I find myself right back in this room facing the world which provides me with no evidence that I am asleep or that there is any "waking" world beyond this one.  I defiantly declare that the world is an illusion unto itself, and I flee again through the door, only to find myself dumped again on the solid floor of this room, the world showing me no distinction between physical matter and the illusion of physical matter.

As a thinking being, it is my privilege to keep insisting on trying that door for the rest of my life if I like, to perpetuate my attempt at doubt indefinitely, but I can not escape the fact that that door will always return me right back to this room.  It is not that I have grounds for believing in the world.  It is not that I have a reason to believe in the world.  It is simply that the world is inescapable.  My only choice is between the futility of trying that door over and over, or embracing the world as I find it, as it begins here with my immediate experience in this room.  Only by embracing the world can I leave this room, to explore it, to learn about it, to understand it, and to experience it.  

42 comments:

  1. Whew! That was just a large bite of stuff to try and chew this early in the day. There you go, poking sticks at the nature of reality itself. You keep playing with that, it's gonna fall off and then where will we all be?

    ReplyDelete
  2. I think it's a temperamental difference between us, Bryan. You are curious about objective reality, getting a rational grip on that, yes? I'm happy to leave that to others, the better to plunge into the infinite depths of subjective reality.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I stopped in on your project with Vincent a few times, just to see what it was about, and fled screaming. I couldn't wrap my mind around the discussion.

    This, though, is something else. It has depth, but at its base is a fundamental simplicity I can admire. The world is.

    ReplyDelete
  4. one skewed vision of one man, who then passes another man on the street having this same interpretation of the world he occupies and yet, it feels different to him. It sounds like a passing car, but might be instead a plane. He touches the hand of his wife or child and his hopes and dreams and fears and joys are passed on, but not quite the same way. Each of us return to a room within a room that occupies the space of all things...it is whole...similar yet distant and unique in its own way, depending on one's vantage point.

    Nicely done.

    ReplyDelete
  5. @Rev: Not much of anywhere, I guess. ;D

    @Vincent: I think you're right on the money there. I remember what you said about rainbows before. I am interested in the dream angle that arises from the subjective sense that you can find the end of it somewhere and dig for gold, but there's another side of me that can't lose myself in that entirely, another side that needs to know that a rainbow is really just a trick of light refraction with no end to touch the Earth in any particular spot. For me, the latter usually wins out over the former.

    @Doug: Well, this was written in an effort to simplify and consolidate a lot of messy loose threads that had gathered at that point.

    ReplyDelete
  6. @Scott: Yes, we all start from our own personal vantage points.

    ReplyDelete
  7. To fully address this post, which reads like epistemology for beginners, would require a comment of equal length, so I'll restrict myself to a few general comments.

    You talk about a sparrow in a tree, but you present no proof that either exists. It could be an illusion. The same with the car passing by: that is also an assumption. On what grounds are you making these assumptions? In fact, your statement that the world represents reality is also an assumption. "Knowledge" of the world does not constitute proof that the world exists.

    If you're interested in an academic appraisal of the issues that you have raised in this essay, I can recommend Epistemology: A Modern Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge by Robert Audi. Explanations is a non-technical assessment.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hmm. To Dennis's point, what *is* proof if not the knowledge backing whomever deems it as fact? And what proof does Audi present that can not also be dispatched by some degree of assumption? Someone help me here, I'm drowning inside this possible, but unlikely, existence!

    ReplyDelete
  9. I really want to address Dennis's points about "proof," but I think Bryan already did in his second-to-last paragraph. Whether or not you dismiss the reality of the room, it is still there when you open your eyes.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Exactly Doug. It's not that I can prove the World exist; I just can't escape it. And in my most immediate experience of the World there is a tree and bird. If I'm to doubt this tree and bird, then the grounds for doubting it would have to present themselves on an even more compelling level of proof. Suppose Dennis calls me on the phone and says, "The tree and bird outside aren't real." After yelling, "How did you get this number!?" and hanging up on him, I'm left to contemplate what he told me. Surely I find it more likely to doubt Dennis' word than the evidence of my own eyes. After all, how do I know he's right? If I can't even believe in the bird and tree then what "proof" do I have that he really called, and I didn't hallucinate the whole thing? So he asks, what proof do I have that the bird and tree are real? I say, what reason do I have to doubt them? What "proof" could I have that supersedes my first-hand experience of them?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Okay, I'm back from work and prepared to give a more thorough reply. Consider this addressed to Doug, Scott, Dennis, Rev...et al..and whoever else is interested:

    Suppose that the world as we know it is a Matrix-like construct of some sort. Now, first of all, notice that the key words here are "as we know it." For even if we were to discover such a thing, it wouldn't technically be an escape from the world, we would merely be piercing a veil of illusion at the core of our experience of it. Furthermore, the only way we could make such a discovery is by the World revealing itself in this larger sense in some compelling way through our experience. There would have to be some noticeable glitch, some loose thread, some seam showing somewhere, or else someone would have to "unplug" us so that we could experience the truth for ourselves. Barring these things, it becomes not only pointless but impossible to doubt the world. It would lead back to the room, because that's where any serious project of doubt has to start, here in this room with immediate experience. For all we know, the "world as we know it" might be a matrix inside of a matrix inside of another matrix inside of 15 other matrices on down the line, and all of them inside of the insane fever dreams of a lunatic in a soiled bunny costume lying in a pool of his own excrement at the edge of the universe, but how is that going to be any more provable than the bird and tree?

    When you look at history and consider the discoveries that really have revolutionized our perception of the world as we know it, you find that they begin within our experience of the World and blossom outward, changing everything. I mentioned Eratosthenes in the post above. His discovery was based on a lot of math, and abstract theory, and the ideas of other Greek scholars, but ultimately it came down to his immediate experience with a stick and a shadow. He had to proceed from the assumption that the stick and the shadow were real for...anything else to follow. When it comes to proof, you have to have some place you can hang your hat. Dennis up there says up there that you can't prove that the stick and the shadow are real. Well, then what is proof? What would it take to prove something? You can continually undercut the concept of proof on into infinity, and continually ask for proof of the proof, if you find that sort of thing amusing, but I don't see how it's production, and it ultimately leads nowhere...except right back to the room, where there's just you and the stick and the shadow.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I don't like the word "matrices." It should be matrixes. If I am ever put in charge of the English language it is getting changed.

    I do believe there is more to the world than what we observe. Take ultraviolet. It's always been there, long before we had the tools to see it. There is probably much of reality we can't see and don't know we don't see. But that doesn't mean that the reality we DO see is any less legitimate. The color red is still red, and blue is blue, whether or not there is more out there I don't recognize.

    The same goes if we are living in a Keanu Reeves movie. My desk may be computer generated and exist only in my mind, but it still exists. This is the reality I have to deal with. I can question whether there is more to it, or whether it exists on some other plane, but to me it is as real as I am. I don't need proof. The desk is.

    I really liked this post, by the way, if you hadn't guessed.

    ReplyDelete
  13. "What is proof?" he asked as he washed his hands in disgust at his own ignorance.
    "Is proof a changing law?"
    "We both have proof."
    "Is mine the same as yours?"

    ReplyDelete
  14. I just realized that was a lot of words to say, "I agree with you, Bryan."

    ReplyDelete
  15. @Rev: A quote from something?

    @Doug:I wasn't even sure if I spelled "matrices" right, but spellcheck didn't raise any objections, so I moved on.

    Yes, this is world we have to deal with. I said something similar to Vincent during our project. I also said that any world where hot stoves can burn you and semis can flatten you like a pancake has to be taken seriously.

    I guess this was a lot of words to say, "Glad you liked it." ;)

    ReplyDelete
  16. I just wanted to say hi and let you know that I've been over here to try to read the post a few times already, but can't seem to keep undistracted by work long enough to finish! I will be back tomorrow when I can give it my full attention. Thanks for participating in the study! :)

    ReplyDelete
  17. I am not lost in your headache, my man, I am in full retrospect of it and the forward thinking that you have put out there for people like Dennis to counter. My point to him was, what is proof and was is that proof THE proof above all other proofs...

    ReplyDelete
  18. @Rachel: Yeah, it's a long one. Take your time ;)

    @Scott: I get what you're saying...I think. Proof is one of those things that can just go on and on and on, like a child asking "why?" Some people like to use that to drive home the point that we can't be completely, absolutely sure of anything. Well, of course we can't. Whoever said we could. We're not omniscient. We'll never have every last piece of the puzzle, and even if we did have every piece of the puzzle, we couldn't be completely sure there isn't more puzzle.

    ReplyDelete
  19. This is spectacular! You redeemed yourself after your ownership of truth relating to Determinism set me back a bit (with all due respect).

    I can imagine Vincent attempting to rebut this in some way. If he did, please point me to the place, as I think that would be entertaining.

    ReplyDelete
  20. I would love to oblige you, John, but have abjured rebuttals and refutations, to make time for some lightweight stuff that flows easily from the pen: on God and Death.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Here is the original post, with Vincent's comments below it:

    http://strangeparadox.blogspot.com/2000/02/world.html

    And here's a post Vincent wrote in response to that one:

    http://strangeparadox.blogspot.com/2011/08/thanks-for-world-penance.html

    It wouldn't be entirely accurate to say that Vincent ever substantially disagreed with my main thesis here. Part of the problem on our project was that we were often working at cross-purposes, and we often got confused about the other's agenda. Vincent wasn't advocating outright solipsism, that would have been fairly easy to deal with by comparison to what he was on about, something a bit more sophisticated. Our main dispute, at this point, was between how much of the world is objective and how much of it is subjective. We drew that line at different points.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I was lost and intellectually outgunned. My mind grabbed on the phrase "What is proof?" and visions of Jesus Christ Superstar flashed through my head. Changing Pilates words slightly but still with the Pharisees in the background chanting "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

    Kind of dumb, I know. But it was all I had.

    ReplyDelete
  23. What is truth, says Pilate

    Waits for no answer.

    Double your stake, says the clock, to the aging dancer.

    Double the guard, says Authority,
    Treble the bars.

    Holes in the sky, says the child.
    Scanning the stars.

    ~ Probably written by Louis MacNiece

    ReplyDelete
  24. @Rev: Well Mr. Myste here apparently got the reference. Me, I never saw it.

    ReplyDelete
  25. OK, I read the posts and comment threads and two things occurred to me. First, I was a little disappointed that Vincent did not post the World Revisited, and yet proud of him at the same time.

    Believe it or not, your basic pragmatism is better aligned with my worldview. However, I see Vincent as perhaps more like Neo in the Matrix. It is very hard to explain the world outside the Matrix when everyone else is still in it.

    So, what I like about “The World,” is that it is brilliant, organized, and irrefutable. But that bothers me. I don’t like arguments that are that powerful. It’s too much of a good thing. Therefore, I attempted to offer a dissenting response. Keep in mind, it was not easy, as your opinion, as laid out, is mostly beyond reproach.

    Something Vincent said, then quoted, is very powerful:

    I want to understand it all, not as a scientist, for that requires a specialized way of looking at things, but just as a human with time to stand and stare.

    Whether reality is subjective or not probably is not the question he is answering. It is the question you answer.

    Hamlet says: There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


    I believe this is true. I don’t want to believe it. I want to see humankind as the Nature’s ultimate achievement, but for all I know we are measly intermediate state in the production of something useful. We have science to help us discover truth. That truths we find are consistent with science else we discard them, so our body of scientific knowledge increases over time, in both consistency and volume.

    Light is a particle. No, wait. It is a wave. Hmm, what if it is both a particle and a wave? Yes, but that makes no sense. Hmm. Strings! Yes, whether it is a particle or a wave depends on the frequency at they oscillate. Yes, that’s it.

    Science may be wrong or it may be right, but there is no question that light exists as it is experienced. The experience of light is another thing, the human response to it. The fact of experience poses a question the physicist does not asked, which perhaps is the point. Whether light is a particle, a wave, or both, is of scientific concern. Existence itself, the properties of experiencing life, cannot be explained with pure science. The ultimate source of life cannot be explained with pure science. Life emerging from the absence of life cannot be explained with pure science. Perhaps metaphysics cannot explain them either, or perhaps science will, to my chagrin, answer the question of how perception evolves in the absence of perception. I doubt this, as I doubt that it does.

    For all we know, the most complex and useful scientific question has yet to be asked. Perhaps that question is not really scientific at all. Natural Law itself could be an organized subset of a greater reality. It could be nothing more than an experiment we cannot imagine.

    Nothing I have stated does anything to repudiate the value of science or empirical evidence. Why would I want to? The scientific lens is useful and it can show me things. However, there are perhaps things it cannot show me, and the fact that they don’t fall under the purview of science as we currently define them offers no evidence that they don’t exist. If Galileo tells me I cannot see the stars though a microscope, I will agree. I can, however, see things that he cannot. If Galileo’s reality rests on using the eyes unassisted, or using a telescope, he will miss a universe of reality, simply because the lenses he chose were too limited to show him a great many things. If he then constructs his worldview around the fact that his science knows not of those things, he scientific view will be at odds with reality, not because of what he sees and believes, but because of what he cannot see, and thus denies.

    [To Be Concluded ...]

    ReplyDelete
  26. [Conclusion...]

    Douglas Adams in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy sought: The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. For eons the answer was sought.

    Finally, when it was revealed, the answer was 42. What does that mean? It would take eons more to figure out.

    For all we know, this whole thing we call nature or science may be nothing more than a small piece of reality, that is really nothing but rules of the small container in which we live (or see), and that is meaningless in any grand context.

    Scientific knowledge itself may be a disciple that bears much fruit, but that cannot claim the rest. The universe is a large place and there is enough truth for everyone.

    The whole thing, science and natural law, may be one of Pope’s small Alps.


    So pleased at first the towering Alps we try,
    Mount o’er the vales, and seem to tread the sky ;
    The eternal snows appear already past,
    And the first clouds and mountains seem the last ;
    But those attained, we tremble to survey
    The growing labours of the lengthened way ;
    The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
    Hill peep o’er hills, and Alps on Alps arise !

    ReplyDelete
  27. All this talk of science puts me in mind of another post over there that you might be interested in. Something else I might get around to salvaging one of these days. It's not exactly along the same lines of what you're saying, but I think there's at least some relevance.

    http://strangeparadox.blogspot.com/2011/08/human-variable.html

    ReplyDelete
  28. Wow! That was a brain full with a great conclusion. :) It can be fun to doubt. I love a good debate like that, but you're right about embracing the room... and that the doors are meant to take us to new and exciting experiences. :)

    Love the Alps poem above. :)

    ReplyDelete
  29. @Rachel: It starts with a window and ends with a door. By the way, I wrote that Alps poem. Don't let John fool you about that Alexander Pope guy. Whoever heard of such a ridiculous name..."Pope" I mean, c'mon ;D

    @John: There's usually someone who will try to refute any argument. I've even heard someone try to refute Descartes' cogito ergo sum which is probably the king of irrefutable arguments. They said that it depends on the grammatical conceit of a subject and an object. Frankly, I think they're missing the point, but it shows that some people will try to argue with anything.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Rachel,

    Ironically, that poem is one a piece of a piece of one of Bryan's larger works.

    The entire piece reads thus:
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    And drinking largely sobers us again.
    Fired at first sight with what the muse imparts,
    In fearless youth we tempt the heights of arts,
    While from the bounded level of our mind,
    Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind;
    But more advanced, behold with strange surprise
    New distant scenes of endless science rise!
    So pleased at first the towering Alps we try,
    Mount o'er the vales and seem to tread the sky,
    The eternal snows appear already pass'd,
    And the first clouds and mountains seem the last:
    But, those attain'd, we tremble to survey
    The growing labours of the lengthen'd way,
    The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
    Hills peep o'er hills, and Alps on Alps arise!

    It is usually called “A Little Learning is a Dangerous Thing.” I think it comes from a larger body known as Essay on Criticism.

    Bryan, in a former life, was Alexander Pope. But he wasn’t a real pope. He was just Mr. Pope.

    ReplyDelete
  31. By the power vested in me by the Discordian Church and the Goddess Eris herself I hereby declare that Bryan and all of his mighty followers may declare himself/themselves a Pope, The Pope and even Mr Pope if they so wish.

    Hail Eris!

    ReplyDelete
  32. Just one thing. You seem to equate doubting with rejecting ("Suppose I do try to doubt the world. I reject the world wholesale as it begins for me here in this room.")
    That isn't necessary. Doubting just means not being entirely sure. It doesn't mean dismissing wholesale.
    Probably it's impossible for us to know what the universe is ultimately like (I don't often agree with Plato but it's the shadows on the cave wall thing isn't it)
    It sometimes seems like we imagine modern science tending toward a complete understanding of the universe, with the latest discoveries in the LHC or whatever coming teeteringly close to providing a full 100% answer, (compared to the, say, 95% correct that was Einstein, and the 50% correct that was Newton) but it may be that none of them are anywhere close to 100%. Maybe it's nearer 4%, 2% and 1%. We may never get anywhere near 'the truth'.
    That doesn't mean the research is fruitless of course. We still know twice as much as we did even by this meagre measure. Einstein is probably a truer representation of the universe than Newton but Newtonian physics are still useful.

    And still we live mainly in the world we grew up in as children, even the physicists.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Oh, I completely agree that we'll probably never have all the answers. As I said to Scott up there, we'll never have every last piece of the puzzle, and even if we did, we couldn't be completely sure there isn't more puzzle.

    I guess when I say "doubt" in this context, I mean metaphysical doubt, solipsistic doubt. True, it's not the same as rejection. It's the difference between saying, "the world is an illusion" and merely asking, "Does the world exist?" The point, however, is that although I may never be able to answer that question with absolute satisfaction, the act of even asking it refers me back to the world as the only means available with which to attempt an answer. The real issue is proof, and where we draw the line on accepting something as solid proof.

    Dennis up there says, in effect, that I can't prove that the chair I'm sitting on is real. This is the kind of doubt I'm talking about. He's not rejecting the reality of the chair; he's just questioning it, declaring it's uncertainty. My counter-point is that this chair lies upon the very frontier of what I can prove. At this moment, the World for me absolutely begins with this chair. There's no where I can go prior to the chair to hunt for proof of its existence.

    In one sense, this doesn't prove the chair absolutely, because there's always other possibilities. But in another sense, it does prove the chair because it leaves absolutely no substantial grounds for doubting the chair, because at the moment, the World begins for me with this chair. It is, at the moment, the most certain thing in the World for me, and anything that would call the chair into question would have to be therefore less certain than the chair itself.

    Meanwhile, I also agree that the research isn't fruitless. Far from it. We may never learn everything, but we can always learn more, and we can grow and improve from that knowledge. We approach infinity, while never reaching it, but it's still worth the approach.

    Thanks for stopping by Steve.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Hi I just came across your entry via Rachel's Sociology study and wow that is a lot to think about and confuse oneself with. But I like to read and think in philosophical terms and maybe I just need to use the window of this blog to do it more often (but why am I thinking of Plato's allegory of the cave) Just in case you want to have a look at my little entry for Rachel' Sociology study here is the link
    http://phoenixrisesagain.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/closing-doorstueren-schliessen

    ReplyDelete
  35. Yea, thank you for the link. I've had to close doors on people I've been close to a time or two. Sometimes it is necessary. Absolutely.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Ok - the point I was trying to make was that the 'real' universe is probably far weirder than we can possibly imagine, even without mysticism or solipsism, just sticking to the science. (And yet we live mainly in the world we grew up in as children. That was not just a throw-away line.)
    Solipsism is only interesting if I imagine that The Universe, being a figment of my imagination is either somehow under my control, which it certainly doesn't seem to be, or under someone else's control, either as in the Matrix or as in The Mind of God.
    I don't know what to say about the latter (except Help!) but in the former case, the fact that the universe certainly behaves as if it has its own independent reality, irrespective of what i do, means that I have no choice but to treat it that way.
    Which I think is a long-way-round way of saying what you said in the first place.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Yes, entertaining the notion that the world as we know it exists only in the mind is only meaningful if there's a chance of controlling the dream or waking up from it. Otherwise, it's pretty much a moot point.

    And Yes, I also think the universe is probably far stranger that we know, and I agree that we don't have to go beyond science for that strangeness because science is adaptable to the strangeness. The beauty of science is that it continually adjusts to deal with new information.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Well that's that then. I think we're done.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Hmm, that sounds kind of ominous. I hope it's not meant to be taken that way.

    ReplyDelete
  40. No - I meant I think we've got that cleared up. On to the next thing! Which is about aliens. Very good - made me laugh anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Ha, good. Now we've cleared up the clear up. Glad you liked the aliens ;)

    ReplyDelete

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...